The Bullets Forever Top 20: Parameters and Brainstorming

by Pradamaster on Jul 23, 2007 5:06 PM EDT in Site News

These dog days of summer are killing me, and I imagine they're killing you all too. There's not much basketball to discuss, save for a depressing referee scandal and Team USA. We know something is going to happen with Blatche and Navarro, but there are no new rumors regarding those two. We could always discuss other teams (and we probably will), but this is a Wizards blog, first and foremost. I imagine most of you are here to talk Wizards, not to talk NBA.

With that in mind, we're going to start a summer series here, known as the Bullets Forever Top 20. Basically, we think of the Top 20 players in franchise history and count them down from 20-1 over the next month and a half. Lots of sites on our network do this, and I think it's a pretty cool idea. There's nothing that unifies readers more than discussing the glory days of the past, particularly with a readership of varying ages. I personally didn't become a Bullets fan until the Webber/Howard era, when I was 8 years old, so there's a lot of history I never experienced.

Before we do this, though, we need to discuss the parameters. The first major question is who should be considered. How many years, minimum, does a player have to play here in order to get consideration? Should Chris Webber be considered, even though he played less than 4 full seasons? What about Bobby Dandridge? Can Michael Jordan count? We should figure out where we should draw the line.

The other question is, does the player have to have been drafted by the franchise to be considered? I'm assuming no, because that would rule out guys like Webber, Elvin Hayes, and Gilbert Arenas, but what if we're talking about a guy on the borderline? Does being drafted inrease their candidacy?

And these are all before we decide what the top 20 will be.

So consider this a thread for coming up with guidelines, as well as some brainstorming. I'm hoping that this will be a group effort, so if you're interested in writing one of the profiles (particularly if you lived through that players' career), e-mail me at pradam@brandeis.edu. To add suspense, I won't publish the actual order until it's done, but if you are participating in the project, I'll let you know what it ends up being.

Begin the discussion in the comments section here.

0 recs | Comment 16 comments

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Comments

GOOD IDEA

Are you looking for nominations? I grew up with the Bullets of the Malone era, I'm not old enough to remember the Hayes days...

Maybe you should also come up with top 20 favorites, that werent necessarily the best, but that people just seemed to root for...

the Juan Dixon's, Ledell Eackles, Jeff Rulands, Tim Leglers and all... maybe for another time but just a thought.

Also a top 10 'past their prime Bullets' list-- We can call it the Unseld-Pollin Legacy.

by kdp922 on Jul 23, 2007 6:15 PM EDT 0 recs

Ooh, interesting

I like the top 10 random favorites. My list would include Jahidi White, Tracy Murray, Dixon, Eackles, Legler, Gheorghe, etc. The "past-their-prime Bullets" list is good too (Spencer Haywood, Moses, Gus Williams, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond).

Here's a list of players I came up with off the top of my head for the original list that deserve consideration. Question marks are the murky ones because of their lack of years.

Walt Bellamy
Gus Johnson
Earl Monroe
Kevin Lougtery
Wes Unseld
Jack Marin
Phil Chenier
Elvin Hayes
Bobby Dandridge
Jeff Rutland
Jeff Malone
Moses Malone?
Gus Williams?
Bernard King?
Michael Adams?
Pervis Ellison?
Tom Gugliotta?
Chris Webber
Juwan Howard
Gheorghe Muresan
Rod Strickland
Mitch Richmond?
Richard Hamilton?
Michael Jordan?
Jerry Stackhouse?
Gilbert Arenas
Larry Hughes?
Antawn Jamison?
Caron Butler?

Add or delete names as you all wish.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 23, 2007 6:19 PM EDT 0 recs

Top 20 Bullets/Zards

My first post on Bullets forever, been a long time fan of the site, finally decided to join.

As for the list of players i like the ones you have, how bout the following...

Charles Johnson - Key to Championship win
Mitch Kupchak
Rick Mahorn - Originally drafted by Bullets played 4 years or so here
Kevin Grevey - Vital part of our Championship run
Frank Johnson - 82 NBA All Rookie Team
Kevin Porter - Key member of 75 Finals team vs Golden State - held the assist record before Skiles broke it in 1990.

As far as parameters go i think all the things you mentioned in the first post are key to determining the top 20 of all time.

In no specific order..

*time with team (Unseld, Chenier, Gus Johnson)
*contribution to team (See above, Hayes, Monroe)
*contribution to community
*NBA awards (i.e. scoring leaders, assist leaders)
*NBA stats
*NBA Championships w/w/o Bullets
*Memorable moments as a Bullet/Wizard (i.e., Malone's falling out of bounds shots, Gil's 60, Unseld tipping his own shot to win game 6 in 78

Anyways thats my two cents, as far as writing profiles, i'd love to help. I love doing research on the Bullets and would love to contribute to the site, just let me know what you need.

War is the only game in which it doesn't pay to have the home-court advantage. ~Dick Motta

by BulletsFever78 on Jul 24, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up 0 recs

Welcome!

And I'll definitely solicit you once we set the list.

Just curious...if it were up to you, what should be the minimum within those categories? Like, what's the minimum amount of time to be considered? Or should anyone who played here at all be considered, with added weight to longer-tenured players?

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 24, 2007 6:13 PM EDT up 0 recs

if you include googs and adams

you cant leave out rex chapman, don maclean, and calbert cheaney

by facekdr on Jul 24, 2007 10:39 AM EDT 0 recs

Oh God...

Have we left out God Shammgod??

by Romans12 on Jul 24, 2007 11:10 AM EDT 0 recs

Not anymore

He'll go on the "fan favorite" list.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 24, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up 0 recs

Michael Ruffin

Should probably go on the "fan favorite" list, considering the furor he caused in the previous post.

by mamemimo on Jul 24, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up 0 recs

Alright

So here's what we've got right now. I'm thinking the order of "importance" would go something like this.

-Tenure
-"Legacy" with the team (this includes both on court, particularly team success, and the community angle mentioned by BulletsFever78). This is not a statistical analysis or a list of numbers, rather, it's the intangible impact. Normally, I'd place the numbers first, but history is different.
-Numbers. (Note: This doesn't really include all-star games. I happen to think they're not so important to the overall analysis. For example, Michael Adams and Bobby Dandridge have the same number of all-star appearances as a Bullet/Wizard, but I doubt anyone feels they should be close together on this list).
-Individual moments.

In my mind, there are 10 people that must be on this list. In no particular order:

Walt Bellamy
Wes Unseld
Earl Monroe
Gus Johnson
Phil Chenier
Elvin Hayes
Bobby Dandridge
Jeff Malone
Chris Webber
Gilbert Arenas

There are a few possibilities that didn't or haven't played here for long, but made some sort of dent. We have to decide if each of these guys should be considered, based on both merit and time spent.

-Moses Malone
-Gus Williams
-Bernard King
-Michael Adams
-Pervis Ellison
-Tom Gugliotta
-Rod Strickland
-Mitch Richmond (no!)
-Michael Jordan
-Richard Hamilton
-Jerry Stackhouse (no!)
-Larry Hughes
-Antawn Jamison
-Caron Butler

That leaves everyone else, which is as follows.

-Kevin Loughtery
-Jack Marin
-Kevin Porter (good oversight, my bad)
-Charles Johnson
-Mitch Kupcheck
-Kevin Grevey
-Frank Johnson
-Jeff Rutland
-Rick Mahorn
-Juwan Howard
-Gheorghe Muresan
-Calbert Cheaney
-Rex Chapman
-Don MacLean

Who really has to go from that list?

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 24, 2007 10:13 PM EDT 0 recs

Oh, and the other lists, if we want to do them

The 10 best random players nominees (my memory is hazy of the 70s-era teams, so if anyone wants to fill me in):

-Rick Mahorn
-Manute Bol
-Muggsey Bogues (does he count?)
-Charles Jones (the 80s Tim Legler)
-Ledell Eackles
-Mel Turpin
-LaBradford Smith (just for the MJ game)
-Gheorghe
-Brent Price
-Tim Legler
-Tracy Murray
-Lorenzo Williams
-God Shamgodd
-Jahidi White
-Tyrone Nesby
-Popeye Jones
-Juan Dixon
-Michael Ruffin

And as far as the over the hill list, this is from the top of my head
-Spencer Haywood
-Gus Williams
-Bobby Dandridge (even if it did work out...)
-Moses Malone
-Bernard King
-Kevin Duckworth
-Mark Price
-Mitch Richmond
-Otis Thorpe
-Michael Jordan
-Jerry Stackhouse (well, not really)
-Charles Oakley
-Byron Russell
-The entire 2002/2003 team

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 24, 2007 10:28 PM EDT 0 recs

What about Rod Strickland?

On the over the hill list

by mamemimo on Jul 25, 2007 9:46 AM EDT up 0 recs

Good catch

Forgot about him.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 25, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up 0 recs

You forgot...

Juwann Howard. It was a bad ending but a very nice beginning. He single handedly led the team to an 18 game improvement in '95-'96 over the previous year.
Rod Strickland wasn't over the hill when we got him. He had 2 exellent years as point guard of the Webber/Howard teams.

by hotplate on Jul 25, 2007 1:02 PM EDT 0 recs

oops, there he is

Just noticed Juwann's name on the list. Sorry.

by hotplate on Jul 25, 2007 1:05 PM EDT 0 recs

Surprising omission

I'm surprised I haven't seen John Williams mentioned at all here (Gus, of course -- even Lorenzo, but no John). Before he got hurt early in the 89-90 season, he was the best player on a pretty good team. 18 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists. He would handle the ball, make plays for teammates and put the ball in the hole.

I guess what surprises me most is that no one has mentioned him even though we've had multiple God Shammgod sightings (granted, a far more interesting moniker). Sure, having God on your side is cool, but having a budding superstar turn into the Goodyear blimp is a pretty good story.

by Vanilla Gorilla on Jul 25, 2007 1:50 PM EDT 0 recs